Hanna Engström, why do we need more acceptance?

00:00:00: Hello everybody and welcome to a new episode of academia insights.

00:00:04: Today's episode is a little bit different than usually because we are recording.

00:00:09: live

00:00:09: from Gotland

00:00:11: from a place that shaped my life in more than one way and... ...more then I could have ever imagined when i first came here.

00:00:20: I came here for becoming a better rider, but also found so much more!

00:00:24: This is the place where I lived at work with my friend and colleague Hanna Engström.

00:00:28: It's also where we met our husband.

00:00:33: Hanna and I worked closely together many years And shared everyday lives and horses and ideas Also the challenges of daily life and probably more than a few very long days in writing.

00:00:49: And in this table, we have remained friends ever since.

00:00:52: that alone is already well done when you can manage to write The Waves Of Our Life!

00:00:59: Now I'm back and staying here for couple weeks on the

00:01:02: farm...

00:01:03: ...and becoming part-of-the-ridden That every farm has little bit..I feel it's like hard beat.

00:01:08: Every farm has an individual Rhythm.

00:01:12: coming back to a place like this is A strange and beautiful experience at the same because you don't only meet The people you knew And where You have been part of the rhythm, but you also Meet.

00:01:23: The person that you Have used To be ten years ago.

00:01:27: That's a long time yourself from then?

00:01:31: exactly.

00:01:31: yes Exactly no one.

00:01:33: I was standing with Mona in the arena on This spot there.

00:01:35: so wow and Hannah and i we have both spent So many Years working with horses and exploring academic out-of-riding, horse's life challenges.

00:01:48: Having a farm we have learned and taught and questioned and changed and exchanged and gazed at experiences that has inevitably transformed the way we see horses today in ourselves.

00:02:03: So today... We want to talk about now.

00:02:06: We want to talk about the things we once believed was absolute certainty, um... The ideals we pursued also and the horses who made us reconsider.

00:02:17: Yeah one or the other thing!

00:02:20: And we want to talked about acceptance because acceptance of the horse in front of us is so important rather than the horse imagined it might become?

00:02:28: The Horse Of Our Dreams maybe?

00:02:31: Also acceptance and patience with ourselves

00:02:36: and

00:02:37: hardest part.

00:02:38: And our own bodies, our limitations... Yeah the changes that life is bringing in to questions of whether acceptance really means like up or giving in?

00:02:51: Or if it might be a point from which honest development can finally begin.

00:02:54: So there was very long introduction

00:02:57: but it's well said

00:02:59: Welcome!

00:02:59: It feels a little bit funny to welcome you into your garden And to a podcast in your own garden.

00:03:06: It's the same time.

00:03:07: I'm so grateful that we are here and finally managed because of this project since a while.

00:03:12: Yeah, thank you Celina for inviting

00:03:26: me!

00:03:27: Yeah, I don't know.

00:03:28: Now it was a long intro and you already mentioned the topic but for them that to me... I could tell something i get in my mind of why I for the first place choose to come here where we are now

00:03:49: please.

00:03:50: um..I have a background Where My Father had horses and he was breeding them for a certain goal.

00:04:01: He wanted to have horses that were able to travel long distance, being safe having the correct temperament human life enjoy how humans are living when they're on a long journey And I knew how careful he was with the selection.

00:04:32: Also, when he sold a beautiful foal and asked him why do you sell this boy now?

00:04:43: He said yes because he didn't want to go on that journey but wanted something else!

00:04:54: But the matter he had, has found that a very good breeding mare I must say.

00:05:00: He...I don't know how he was so skilled!

00:05:03: I cannot believe it's not alive any longer as i can not ask

00:05:07: him.

00:05:07: He had this

00:05:10: feel?

00:05:18: So he was not playing around.

00:05:20: He was clear what he needed to make it work, so the breeding mare was excellent according.

00:05:27: actually too.

00:05:28: she made also Excellent offsprings

00:05:32: for

00:05:32: the task and he was able later To do a four-year long journey with this family of horses.

00:05:40: I remember that It was never about at.

00:05:43: the horses didn't manage other things.

00:05:47: that was more challenging around the journey.

00:05:50: That I live with,

00:05:51: but

00:05:52: also if i look back how he kept the horses?

00:05:56: He kept them without a field.

00:05:59: they were loose around the farm.

00:06:01: we had circumstances

00:06:06: where

00:06:09: field, or if they went to the forest.

00:06:12: Or he made them choose their own daily path and He also told that this time during the day we work together.

00:06:20: The rest you can go off in your family And that made a lot of impact.

00:06:25: then I had the same background as many of us.

00:06:28: i have been In a riding school.

00:06:30: i have seen horses stressed or misunderstood all these things That We All Have Done.

00:06:38: Then I started to think that having enough land for at least starting to give horses as good conditions, As i could afford.

00:07:05: What was then very, very interesting were absolutely all the horses I put out here on the fields together.

00:07:14: They were developing in a positive direction but then their real body shoes became clear to

00:07:24: come out and

00:07:25: came out And then as we have done hand-on our heart sort.

00:07:32: Oh, we have to become better riders.

00:07:35: It must

00:07:37: be done

00:07:37: on us that we cannot ride good

00:07:41: enough.".

00:07:43: So therefore I decided to learn how their academic art of riding came into the picture.

00:07:51: and yes!

00:07:51: I agree a lot beneficial things started to happen And i was grateful for them.

00:08:00: then again it stopped developing and so on.

00:08:04: Why?

00:08:05: It doesn't help that I'm better in riding or doing more advanced exercise, still here we have an issue!

00:08:15: And there my knowledge stopped.

00:08:23: A lot of different body therapists, veterinarian knowledges are changing.

00:08:30: Exercise as you know!

00:08:31: Changing diets, changing things really trying the very best in all different ways.

00:08:37: You can also care for a horse and still something was not possible.

00:08:44: And I

00:08:44: remember

00:08:45: how hopeless How sad?

00:08:47: How angry?

00:08:48: Frustrated...I have become and yes Some cases were clear that these horse has too much trouble to enjoy just being in the field.

00:09:01: then That Individ needed to go and I feel that was the best.

00:09:07: I could give that individe but still this in the gray zone In the grey.

00:09:15: so and I remember it was such a stress the riding arena with these horses I just felt my knowledge.

00:09:33: And then, why are you struggling?

00:09:49: That is beautiful!

00:09:51: This is how

00:09:55: you are, this is how I am.

00:10:00: This is us here and now.

00:10:06: And i felt it was when that really sink in... ...and realized the simplicity of that situation If u take all pressure away.. ..and hard things to put on yourself.

00:10:26: And then the horse also said, this is the body and mind you have.

00:10:32: This is how you are?

00:10:34: In this is a body in mind.

00:10:36: I have accept the reality.

00:10:40: see if they're reality sea water.

00:10:42: reality is telling new and that's very very difficult.

00:10:48: i remember i had loved dreams.

00:10:54: I love romantic

00:10:55: dreams.

00:10:57: I have created princess dresses, nice things and a nice saddle, nice leather, nice equipment beautiful horses, nice surroundings... And i like things.

00:11:12: that is nursing the beauty and harmony.

00:11:19: So that

00:11:19: was a little bit difficult to change because the horse said, The true beauty and harmony is in acceptance of reality.

00:11:31: It's the realty!

00:11:33: That is beautiful... And it was hard as I could see.

00:11:38: Yeah, but this back is C and so.

00:11:41: And that exercise... It's not perfect!

00:11:44: All these things we are nagging and nagging on horse or mostly ourselves?

00:11:52: If you're not allowed any longer to look at the reality it feels strange But so much more real.

00:12:08: That was also a lot of information, so I will try to frame that now.

00:12:14: A little bit?

00:12:14: I have made notes... ...that our audience can follow because we too are always getting carried away when we're meeting.

00:12:24: My first question actually for you is starting with the women who were working together And we can say one of the reasons why this is so fruitile, also because we are different.

00:12:37: For me if I'm looking at you always impressed by your natural seed that you're having?

00:12:43: Because you grew up on horseback!

00:12:44: We

00:12:46: could say

00:12:47: it right?

00:12:47: You already talked a little bit about the project your father had... So you grew literally on horse

00:12:53: back?!

00:12:54: and it's deep down in your nervous system, so you don't think about if the shoulder needs to go forward or that hip is doing this.

00:13:01: It just...it's there!

00:13:04: And I'm telling you their story because that was our meeting point many years ago In The Academic Art of Writing.

00:13:11: we were believe it or not now fifteen years later We weren't talking about the seat Not a little bit at all.

00:13:20: No!

00:13:24: I'm not an artist, i am natural like you are.

00:13:33: And he said, you know I have been writing for so many masters and i had so much different sea training.

00:14:03: Each time came out worse than before.

00:14:05: So im a little bit...I don't want to force people in the position but still was nagging enough that can be very stubborn.

00:14:14: He said okay lets do seetraining.

00:14:17: We know nowadays and what we have done with many interns, now he took my horse in the Carveson in Groundwork.

00:14:24: And was teaching me how to follow those horses

00:14:28: movement.".

00:14:28: On day one it's going kind of okay.

00:14:31: on Day two... It is fine!

00:14:35: Then on day three when he took the launch line off I couldn't ride a circle anymore.

00:14:39: ...and i got really stressed and the master got really stressed.

00:14:43: And then we were both very happy that he went on vacation, But you managed to create this bubble around us, so I did not feel the audience anymore.

00:15:17: And then I thought... This is exciting!

00:15:20: I

00:15:21: need to learn more because it might

00:15:26: be

00:15:27: key and when you later had a position free for help on the pharmacist we would pack up our things few weeks in between deciding and going.

00:15:42: It was very exciting!

00:15:43: And then we were here, it started to work.

00:15:47: when We are looking back at that I can say That i Was probably the biggest nerd In biomechanics wanted To have hips and chests and all placed and you Have been always thinking of this flow Of energy?

00:16:02: yeah because already there.

00:16:04: Yeah no all the names of horses at that time, you had it.

00:16:09: And with this knowledge today I can understand them even

00:16:15: better.

00:16:16: but what i already understood were to not step over the individual because the horse is also just as big an individual we are ourselves Except that things are not perfect, but you still have to open up.

00:16:38: That the energy can float through and that is a part of the mind in the sea training.

00:16:43: so Therefore it was very difficult for you... ...that was the real mechanic in the academic after riding To start at the first point with acceptance inner balance on top of a horse.

00:16:59: that just shows honestly

00:17:02: an

00:17:02: air-natural way of moving with their collected issues.

00:17:08: That was very frustrating, you remember that?

00:17:13: Yes I remember that feeling!

00:17:15: But after a while see if the horse decides to follow YOU in this chaos find position where you can survive and are okay so you don't create

00:17:30: tension.

00:17:32: And what does the horse change together with you and is still there?

00:17:41: That none maybe help.

00:17:43: But no matter... What do did!

00:17:46: Yeah, but I think they have already been lining out.

00:17:49: that may be or then until today's at heart of our work with horses it see acceptance the horse that is there and not overstepping its borders.

00:18:02: Yeah,

00:18:03: because you know how it feels?

00:18:05: Because if we go to feeling I have seen... And then i've been able words on it That a rider's only little bit sad or frustrated.

00:18:18: Not beacause the horse didn't do flying change But he's frustrated.

00:18:24: It didn't realize that was oversteppin the borders, and that makes you sad even if you don't understand it.

00:18:32: We

00:18:32: are coming from a point where we have also always thought about... ...that we just need to explain better what to do.

00:18:41: or I definitely believe that If i'm just training it carefully enough And I am pedagogically enough That is all about understanding.

00:18:52: Let's fix this.

00:18:53: It will be fixed Just by doing good enough.

00:18:57: as a rider, how many horses have you trained in your life so far?

00:19:00: I cannot say.

00:19:02: It's not enough for

00:19:05: hundreds

00:19:06: over.

00:19:07: Did it ever work

00:19:09: actually up to a certain border where the horse actually has its border after that?

00:19:18: but Not all of them order off the horse and we can count those hundreds hundreds on a hand, which were able because they are with the knowledge we have today probably the healthiest.

00:19:33: Yeah and I think that your first sentence was most important one Because of course We need to teach our horses a language And aids If you want do something together

00:19:45: Of course

00:19:46: Yes!

00:19:47: We need build up a language.

00:19:49: It is as it is but... There are also physical limitations.

00:19:54: And then it's not about teaching aids and understanding anymore, than it is about physical ability!

00:19:59: I think that was a quite big mindset change for me because i always thought you know if i am doing better... If im explaining more careful.. If Im training harder.... If Im... It's interesting how egocentric this perspective when we're talking of- If I'm doing better my horse will finally get it.

00:20:18: but then were hitting natural borders.

00:20:22: And how can that look like?

00:20:23: Yeah,

00:20:24: for me with all this amount it can look like a horse don't have three functional gates.

00:20:32: What's that

00:20:33: noise?!

00:20:34: Orange juice!

00:20:36: You wanted to say you're thirsty.

00:20:38: we are fixing it soon.

00:20:41: Good thing she didn't get the coffee.

00:20:45: It could also be You think that something is easy, just having a free willing walk of thought with nice natural swung where the horse isn't trying to replace your balance in some direction which could stay under and you can feel connection between all body parts.

00:21:16: That's quite rare!

00:21:19: And if you don't feel it into saying, oh then you need to do more bending.

00:21:23: You'd need to exercise this and that... ...and IF YOU JUST CAN DO A LITTLE BIT OF PYEF the whole situation will change!

00:21:31: This

00:21:31: will get stronger.

00:21:32: So you work harder?

00:21:34: Yeah But again you'll get disappointed because when you begin to see horse say I'm not sure that i like all those things That puts me out of the border.

00:21:44: so yes It could definitely look like.

00:21:46: I have also seen horses there, and needed to take quicker decisions.

00:21:50: of what do that?

00:21:52: not even felt comfortable out in the field together with a herd.

00:22:00: A herd is also not sure this individual is healthy enough... Be

00:22:06: with us!

00:22:06: It's too dangerous.

00:22:08: And then it really urgent to actually do something because that isn't okay.

00:22:16: But you know the common things that you notice, if you have been over-the border of a horse it doesn't really want to come as easy in the field any longer when you should

00:22:25: catch it.

00:22:27: Or... It shows slowly that ah!

00:22:31: When the saddle comes on now?

00:22:34: No so its very discrete signs even if your are good friends Even If You Have A Good Relationship.

00:22:41: that gives the sumarum of interesting why it's now those small signs.

00:22:49: What is the horse?

00:22:50: And again, you get frustrated since riding or being a horse girl hasn't even from beginning we have not learned so.

00:22:59: then I was able to use my gut feeling and hand on my heart became so many times unsecure because the gut feeling, how can you trust

00:23:12: that?

00:23:13: Yeah.

00:23:13: Among all those things How to do things and how it should be or.

00:23:20: And why does that work for somebody else but not you?

00:23:22: And all the nice pictures at social media, and also if you just come up on this level thing will be fixed.

00:23:31: so has been like a fight an inner fight I have recognized inside myself with insecurity.

00:23:39: But then i remember that Bent actually mentioned Many years ago, that insecureness is healthy.

00:23:49: Also happens when you feel insecure work even harder to understand what it's about.

00:23:57: maybe You actually are sooner or later

00:24:01: And you are not getting so narrow-minded that you're thinking only, You Are Right.

00:24:06: No!

00:24:07: That is one of the things I really like about The Academic Out Of Writing... ...that Bent has always a little bit like nagging on us to keep our eyes open and be ourselves.

00:24:18: But then you probably mentioned we have been working now for such long time together and

00:24:24: swallowed

00:24:26: the path The world and the reality how the horse is sees changed enormously in the last fifteen years.

00:24:34: How

00:24:34: has that changed for you?

00:24:35: Actually,

00:24:36: I felt many times stressed because... ...I feel like i have not enough knowledge to catch up Because it's so many things That You Have To Be Aware Of And of course if you love your horses.. ..you would LIKE to know!

00:24:53: You Would Like to be able to help them Because it was there from the beginning, I just wanted to make life enjoyable for horses or decent.

00:25:06: So it has been stressful and therefore also has been important for me with corporations, with others since we know that we don't have time need all you do to help each other

00:25:21: and also pick somebody else's brain.

00:25:23: And have a second opinion, but this is also tricky because I've felt that many times asked for health... ...and realized it was not only me after my time!

00:25:37: Even professionals that are supposed to help.

00:25:41: You ARE a professional?

00:25:42: Yeah!

00:25:43: Forgetting I'm also human... You're

00:25:45: a horse girl, but you are a professional.

00:25:47: And even professionals that i have tried to ask for help since i know that needed knowledge had not maybe had either the opportunity to catch up as much of what actually

00:26:02: need

00:26:04: to be able to help in some tricky situations.

00:26:09: So I think, i'm just a reflection of how it is in the horse world... I often like to tell also my students that because I can hear and see That we all are struggling.

00:26:28: Yes!

00:26:29: We're also full of horses Because we love them so much very, very best.

00:26:37: And I think that is one of the tricky part as you have this scheme in which he would like to put all horses in and say okay start with your basics then do a little shoulder and then just collecting... You know?

00:26:54: Therefore what we've got from our father-in-teaching here at the academic base who's looking backwards at history and also understand

00:27:08: how

00:27:08: the masters, the historical masters were struggling with their time.

00:27:13: And which decision they needed to take in which experience they got?

00:27:18: But we always have said that if it should be a balance look into future and see what is the future out... ...and integrate those things to support the future riders, the futures horse carer.

00:27:37: And I can't repeat that often enough because i'm this nerd driving our master a little bit crazy with that.

00:27:45: but one of the most important changes we have experienced is how do you look at horses also from scientific standpoint?

00:27:55: Because it's so crazy and I always say in lectures for example, but it was not before two thousand twelve that horses and all other vertebrates.

00:28:07: So not humans everything else acknowledged emotions And with these emotions because pain is an emotion.

00:28:15: They were acknowledged to have gait abnormalities and pain.

00:28:18: And that is why we see this explosion afterwards in science, so one of my close friends said it's a pain research.

00:28:25: We're telling the story about when she was having her PhD thesis... That her doctor father where putting her into the VUSA corner?

00:28:36: When she was discussing that the mice and the lab rats Of course also experienced emotions, pain and joy.

00:28:44: It was simply not acceptable!

00:28:46: And then I think it is very important that we are allowing to look at history... ...and saying okay they were children of their time.. ..and for sure loving the horses.

00:28:59: but if you think they function like a machine or the body is functioning as a machine That's of course pressure your putting on them.

00:29:08: We're thinking I just need to put a little bit of oil into the machine, but going then this is off course.

00:29:15: The glasses that i'm wearing when i'm going in through the arena and teaching.

00:29:20: And as things are we have very good teachers?

00:29:23: I am technically...I thank you too!

00:29:25: But for myself i'm technically very-very

00:29:29: good!!

00:29:30: That was our hardest point for me.

00:29:31: speaking honest from my heart This was the hardest point for knowledge, that because I'm technically very good at making horses do things beyond their border.

00:29:42: And i think it's a difficult one to digest and say okay maybe my intentions were good but maybe they outcome wasn't so beneficial.

00:29:54: But there again we are children of our world.

00:30:02: fast development of always questions your intentions.

00:30:08: But did you ever have a Alexander technique lesson?

00:30:13: I love it!

00:30:14: It's fantastic, but also that the technique was almost connected because we thought if could give awareness on how to move correctly over the bones... The brain will pick this

00:30:31: up

00:30:32: And choose the movements.

00:30:35: that was beneficial and realise, oh I don't have problems.

00:30:40: I'm not so crooked!

00:30:42: The heart idea... Was

00:30:45: good

00:30:45: because it is also what can happen.

00:30:48: Yes It's warm So i dont want to completely throw in the garbage?

00:30:55: No But still It's not enough.

00:30:58: You have to see even a little bit more and maybe it is there where you are coming?

00:31:02: Yeah, at least that was the start of my... I sometimes feel like they had been alive before Norway and after because what we did in Norway were similar to what you do here We created A Little Horse Paradise.

00:31:18: You have so much land, it doesn't matter anymore because she has one hundred fifty hectares.

00:31:22: So if you're an intern here bring your running.

00:31:24: We've often been searching horses!

00:31:28: So there nearly does not matter any more.

00:31:32: but what we can give our horses is mountains and They can go out in summer

00:31:37: completely

00:31:38: free.

00:31:39: You are also

00:31:39: warm fantastic.

00:31:40: Yeah, that is completely Fantastic.

00:31:42: they can be completely free and move free into the mountains and decide When to come home?

00:31:48: And when to leave.

00:31:49: and let's talk about nervous system regulation just because we have.

00:31:53: yeah of course when We're putting horses under pressure in their environment already.

00:31:58: They can't take any decisions there completely helpless.

00:32:02: basically That we are having a stress system.

00:32:05: Maybe that is health because it's maybe not healthy, so out of choice.

00:32:09: but if you're putting them into your environment or my environment and the nervous system still isn't relaxing then have point where can start to be curious.

00:32:18: And this what has happened...to me When I was buying horses, okay.

00:32:24: I am putting them in this environment and for a period of time everything gets better.

00:32:29: the horse is relaxing The horse is getting better muscle that chest comes up And so on.

00:32:35: Why can't he trot two minutes?

00:32:39: That's not normal!

00:32:41: Why do i need to make art?

00:32:42: Educate him for five years Make him trot on his stupid circles.

00:32:49: Shouldn't the horse be able to do it?

00:32:51: And I think the answer is yes, it should be able to do that.

00:32:55: Trot can't and even the circle itself isn't so challenging if the spine is healthy.

00:33:01: If you don't make a meter-circle okay?

00:33:03: Yeah but just normal sensible!

00:33:05: That was where i started to get curious and were many people around me including my vet saying im starting getting a little bit nuts.

00:33:12: But when Im simply not accepting say this as behavior It is not

00:33:20: because that's old fashioned.

00:33:22: That

00:33:22: isn't it?

00:33:22: Yes,

00:33:23: I think so

00:33:24: before two thousand was and that Is what i like about research Because we can say We don't know everything far away from but But a little bit more than twenty years ago And when We can do better because we always try to do our best.

00:33:41: But it's not normal.

00:33:42: if horses are living like this here, If they're living at my place and have proper living conditions They should be able to have three gates.

00:33:52: It is so fun that you say it Because my young helper She is a young girl who just sees a horse And when I said ''I have horses'' You cannot put these horses in cantor now Why not?

00:34:07: Oh, I thought all horses

00:34:09: could.

00:34:10: Yeah it would be nice!

00:34:12: But this is what you think a horse can do and that i also saw when i was younger... ...and didn't understood how much things that can be for

00:34:21: a horse.

00:34:21: The question is then something we need to teak.

00:34:25: So if im having a horse thats not doing it naturally Do i put into Teater or Collection?

00:34:31: Or Piaf To make it cantor?

00:34:33: It would have been my way fifteen years ago.

00:34:35: I wouldn't do it?

00:34:36: No, of course if you cannot do it naturally and artificial is not the truth we could say or it's actually forced...

00:34:47: I'm a very good technician!

00:34:49: Yeah yeah but i can teach them to do it.

00:34:51: But do i still want to do that ?

00:34:53: And do i think due to my values...?

00:34:56: Sorry.. I'll open here.

00:34:57: she wants to go in case he wanted to choose there.

00:35:03: I fear, don't take my dog home.

00:35:05: So but i think it's an important question that we revisit our ethics with growing knowledge and still doesn't mean there is no teaching process.

00:35:16: It does not means a horse might get stronger over the years with physiological training.

00:35:21: But don´t they also need to accept its borders?

00:35:26: Yeah Contra that I can add.

00:35:31: it's ringing words from the master in my system.

00:35:36: If we look at ethics, why?

00:35:41: Why does the horse need to improve that?

00:35:47: you are a good teacher if...

00:35:50: That is beautiful when going around!

00:35:53: ...if It so clearly shown It's overstepping.

00:35:59: Yes, so that's just the same.

00:36:01: but why is no art?

00:36:04: Is beautiful if

00:36:05: it is forced if

00:36:06: its work

00:36:07: there?

00:36:07: you are again at The Old Masters.

00:36:08: they have sin of unclosing

00:36:10: But we have and I have to go to myself.

00:36:13: I say we but I should say have unfortunately learned To use what humans are very good at Closing because we also have a pain.

00:36:30: Yeah, reducing length when we feel emotional pain We can close and we can rely on.

00:36:39: yeah I do it for the cause of the horse.

00:36:42: Yeah, I'd do it Because the master has said that it should be better during time, or I do it because the vet has told that this has to be done.

00:36:53: You know?

00:36:53: I can close and say okay i'd do even if I would be honest.

00:36:59: an open heart could sense their reaction in the emotional of my life.

00:37:04: I think I

00:37:05: have been standing so often next to my horse especially to the Spino because he is limited.

00:37:11: I am so sorry, but it's good for you what we are doing

00:37:18: here.".

00:37:19: And now when i'm in a situation trying to see how do i need change my approach?

00:37:27: actually come into peace with myself?

00:37:33: to observe my own behaviors and be a little bit open, not being mean because I'm not doing anything by purpose.

00:37:43: To do something bad?

00:38:03: teach anymore, because I was in this drawn-in between.

00:38:07: This...I can make you do those and not true if that is right any more.

00:38:12: or where it's the border?

00:38:14: How to find the boarder in between horses are people pleases.

00:38:19: so Because they the horse trying to please me especially food is in the picture then we have a even higher motivation.

00:38:27: just trying to Please It Is really beneficial for the horse And therefore meeting movement science and understanding functionality.

00:38:35: And seeing a few horses that were functional, then comparing them with this functionality... ...and also during teaching.

00:38:44: okay!

00:38:44: Here we see the functional movement getting dysfunctional.

00:38:48: Then I know where the border is.. ..then i can feel safe in my art or in my teachings again.

00:38:54: Okay?

00:38:55: It's so much easier to communicate it to people.

00:38:59: Here we have found the border of this body for now.

00:39:02: Maybe it's changing, maybe

00:39:03: not but there you come again that We are so used to.

00:39:06: I can only go to myself and i'm so usedy.

00:39:10: Those unstresses abnormality in the horses.

00:39:14: So i think its normal It is

00:39:17: normal

00:39:20: And then im getting unsecure Since i don't have

00:39:26: clear.

00:39:28: Yeah,

00:39:30: exactly that.

00:39:31: That

00:39:31: is

00:39:32: normal!

00:39:33: And what I'm seeing in a lot of students when they're seeing abnormal and haven't come to the point of acceptance yet... ...and i feel it's so close because there was really very horrible year.

00:39:44: You are just standing there and see abnormal, abnormal, but what we doing with this abnormal now?

00:39:51: What breaking them down

00:39:52: more?!

00:39:53: Where can you say okay this who your are?

00:39:56: We have to live with a body that you have.

00:39:59: That's okay, my body is also not perfect

00:40:01: but still I cannot come with grounded relaxed attitude into the stable if i'm unsecure of what I see or what I shall do and I still could feel a little worried about this individual I had in my hands.

00:40:21: Therefore, I think a wish would be strange expectations we have on ourselves.

00:40:28: That's our fault.

00:40:29: because that happens.

00:40:30: you say now it will be super simple to tell someone... We look at your horse.

00:40:36: It has this and that from nature From the breed.

00:40:41: This probably been an accident.

00:40:43: therefore this is happening.

00:40:44: But still if You are telling it very kind And very neutral without judging The person that listens will still be getting cramped, getting worried.

00:40:58: blame

00:40:59: themselves.

00:40:59: Why I didn't notice?

00:41:01: why am so stupid?

00:41:03: So even if you talk about the horse is a direct attacking it feels like for the person almost to hear this and therefore people are afraid and such a huge

00:41:16: yes

00:41:16: to take this.

00:41:18: So I have been curious how do you present it in the way that its easy taken?

00:41:23: Because, um... It's helped finally accept reality as beauty.

00:41:33: what word has put infront of or together with you?

00:41:37: That is big lesson from The Pondies!

00:41:39: It

00:41:43: still could actually be a fantastic opportunity to do what would help

00:41:51: and

00:41:52: doing things that will not.

00:41:54: Yeah, also I mean if we are really honest like really honest next to the two of us.

00:42:00: but how many students Do you have?

00:42:04: That Are Really Coming To You?

00:42:05: Because They Wanted A Piaf And Le Bad

00:42:13: First, as we said the relationship.

00:42:16: So it's possible to talk about those things but if its too stressful when everything is in a total mess first have create little language then you look

00:42:27: at them.

00:42:27: You know just looking because that something I'm asking all students what do you wish for?

00:42:33: What does your wish for?

00:42:34: journey with your horse And I think in all these years, once somebody who said that they would like to do the PIF.

00:42:45: But then you just have to contrast since your ask what is asked for because we've also said and academic has said her example, the Squire level walk and trot a little bit of natural counter.

00:42:59: some communication exercises left & right should be kind of the lowest degrees.

00:43:10: Of what a normal horse should

00:43:13: able to do

00:43:14: together with its rider, and still we know how long time it takes to teach an echipage horse and rider

00:43:22: to come to that or at least trainable.

00:43:25: yes I agree.

00:43:26: but then also during this road A lot of horses stop on different staircases where they have reached their borders, knocking them up to that level.

00:43:41: Then the unbalance is often in between dreams or goals for a person even if we all say today... We just have horse for relationship and for liking the horse!

00:44:01: But it is so funny because most people when they are coming to me, They say I want a good relationship and i wanna keep my horse happy.

00:44:11: Most often the happiness is even more important.

00:44:14: And then im wondering isn't that for people like this?

00:44:17: Isn´t that you know...they don´t need perfect horses!

00:44:20: They just needs a good relationships with their horses.

00:44:24: the borders of the horse and really truly seeing through behavior.

00:44:32: And saying, okay this is who you are?

00:44:34: I think that's definitely next step to achieve that goal!

00:44:38: This is who your are independent on what i can make you do.

00:44:42: Let us have a look at actually what YOU can do with joy because many students already so happy if they have a harmonious stage A little shoulder and then trunk.

00:44:58: And have a horse with that they can hike out, maybe jump over a little pole?

00:45:04: Then we are also coming to the tradition... ...that we're not either used giving ourselves that acceptance.

00:45:16: We sometimes force our bodies into situations where it's actually a bit over-our borders.

00:45:24: But I think It's changing.

00:45:26: Isn't that great?

00:45:27: I

00:45:27: think so too.

00:45:28: and i also think if we know better, We can do better.

00:45:30: yes So maybe it sometimes not so bad be so nerdy and say yeah want to know a little bit curious.

00:45:40: And then how Can we apply it back To the horse?

00:45:45: all this.

00:45:45: but If we

00:45:46: take one example before we end Yeah because we have just been into the riding arena.

00:45:51: now We can Take any of my horse cause I Know they are welcome here.

00:45:55: They were not for normal sports.

00:45:58: Yeah, from the beginning that we could already

00:46:02: see.

00:46:02: and so where do you start?

00:46:07: So with your knowledge now how would you recommend

00:46:11: to do I'm usually always starting was functionality just horse in walk different movements say okay what is functional or unfunctional?

00:46:21: then if we have trainability.

00:46:25: more specific because when you sail, the nerd in me say and I know that you are seeing a lot how of course the spine is moving.

00:46:37: When the horse is moving normal?

00:46:39: Yeah i am putting the horse into five different movement units.

00:46:45: okay good!

00:46:46: And then we have the spine toro columbar movement so the swing what we would an academic out-of-riding chest movement, and then we know a lot of forces that for example are just rotating in one direction.

00:46:57: That is giving us information about hind leg dysfunction.

00:46:59: so... We have the thoracolumbus-the chest movement!

00:47:02: You have the movement of the spine?

00:47:04: We has the movement head & neck as a unit?

00:47:07: Exactly!

00:47:08: So when I'm saying front legs i am going all the way up to wither because im not only looking at how our joints move but also look from a physiological standpoint.

00:47:20: then the horse is organized in this system.

00:47:23: And we are calling it the Jurassic Sling System, and that's quite a lot also on social media.

00:47:30: but when you talk about it not so commonly seen on social medias like Pelvic Slings System because they have this natural trampoline effect And we see many, many horses that can't even lift their feet out of the ground.

00:47:48: Now we know something in that system is not functional.

00:47:51: so I'm looking at all these five

00:47:56: and from there you begin to of course wait...

00:48:00: Wait!

00:48:02: ...and then i am having for myself three different stages.

00:48:13: It's not perfect, but you can live with it.

00:48:15: And I have red flags and say okay this is very dysfunctional.

00:48:23: if i have many red flags then the horse isn't trainable.

00:48:27: Exactly!

00:48:28: But that... Isn't that easy?

00:48:30: Yes super-easy.

00:48:31: If there are a lot of tolerable ones than i know starting point so if i had red flag i need to send them back.

00:48:39: So that is unethical to start playing around with.

00:48:42: If I have tolerable, then i can say okay we are looking at how can we improve.

00:48:49: and when you're training planning different muscle fibers in the horse's back what makes this place so great?

00:48:56: Without knowing it for youth energy was important but they get a physiological work out here Billet quite a lot of dysfunction.

00:49:09: Yes,

00:49:10: so if I'm having a horse that is very gate abnormal and That's always where i am starting And then this training doesn't start in the arena Then we start with environment.

00:49:20: even Even If the horses are normal stable there So many tiny twitches you can do then it won't get suddenly like horse life on one hundred fifty hectare.

00:49:31: But you can improve so much!

00:49:33: So, its a daily low impact thing?

00:49:36: Yes

00:49:36: because we always have to be aware of.

00:49:39: when you just look at muscle fiber and researchers in the last two-three years getting...so much better We are coming to point where we say that is just forty five percent all muscles that are trainable in this sense movement training in the sense of exercising.

00:49:57: So a lot that what we are floating on, is strained into the other twenty-three hours or not?

00:50:03: Of

00:50:03: course!

00:50:04: And if it can make positive impact everything will improve.

00:50:09: and then I'm often having horses who aren't trainable.

00:50:13: since many years We're doing these twitches with making sure it's everything that it needs from the nutrition, but also with this environmental change.

00:50:24: We give it... The first positive impact should be visible after six weeks.

00:50:28: we gave three months and then reassess

00:50:30: But is really good.

00:50:32: you actually have a knowledge of how long time It could take to see a change because I think these times things are important

00:50:42: Super important.

00:50:44: Then we re-assess Loadable, tolerable.

00:50:49: Not tolerant?

00:50:51: So do we have a point now where can start training

00:50:53: exactly?

00:50:54: and then We Have A program for Training with our training.

00:50:58: so I'm Calling it Preparing For Training.

00:51:00: yes preparing for Loading or Rehabilitation on the load.

00:51:05: I don't like the word rehabilitation so much anymore.

00:51:08: And then we see, okay and if the horse is mastering that how where are you after six weeks?

00:51:13: After three months do we have to six week C?

00:51:16: it has improved but its not what were wanted.

00:51:18: just continue another six weeks and after three month will look again say Okay!

00:51:23: What happened now?

00:51:25: because sometimes...and this makes me happy about functionality..sometimes there are things that we can first diagnose when the horse is dissected.

00:51:35: And then it's maybe too late!

00:51:38: It could give us explanations, but maybe its a little late We don't want to go there.

00:51:43: Maybe also we would like keep our horses and cuddle them.

00:51:47: Then we have to believe in the body.

00:51:49: The story of this telling even if for lots of stuff we had good diagnostic when we include veterinarians But not everything.

00:51:57: So than simply having to believe the horse.

00:52:00: But there is a dysfunctionality in the perfect sling.

00:52:04: If it can't lift its leg, It will be.

00:52:06: a dysfunctionalty In The

00:52:07: Perfect Slings

00:52:09: Will Be There.

00:52:09: And then comes back to the topic we were here for To accept that what you see and What You Can Think About Is The Reality Of Now.

00:52:20: This How It Is.

00:52:22: Then I remembered That You Also Split From What probably has been and what is acute.

00:52:30: so you are

00:52:31: so pain a new pain.

00:52:33: Yes, yes Because of course if you have an inflammatory process first You need to get out of the inflammatory process.

00:52:40: If you have a chronicle dysfunction It's cold, you know.

00:52:45: If we have inflammation it is hot and that makes it so difficult for example to overweight horses because they have an inflammation in all their bodies.

00:52:53: So you can't train them anymore.

00:52:56: We are going from the nutritional side.

00:52:59: first we cover weight loss.

00:53:00: And how do we do this in a ethical way?

00:53:02: The thorns isn't stuck... So if we don't destroy anything else I always think Facebook is so sad then the horses are slim afterwards but stomach and gut.

00:53:12: And was that a win?

00:53:13: I don't know.

00:53:14: It's also unnecessary!

00:53:17: So we need to go out of inflammation, be able to start training everything that is inflamed.

00:53:21: it can even be bodyworked.

00:53:23: But thats the same with

00:53:24: you.

00:53:25: Is this the

00:53:26: case for you?

00:53:27: Sometimes i think its so strange That we put differences in between animals and people.

00:53:33: But that is also how we have to learn.

00:53:36: That's coming from this century long, today tying it back to Descartes usually tradition of seeing animals as a different type of being than humans and that has just... Just twenty twelve can you imagine?

00:53:54: We all just vertebrate.

00:53:56: but As I say, we want to defend the people a little bit because even if you begin that animals have emotion.

00:54:05: We are still very very bad except our own emotions.

00:54:09: so we're still in traditions nosing up into normal social integrations with other people.

00:54:18: So it's still not completely correct, just be yourself and honest and accept things... ...and showing off exactly who you are because it is still that you have to behave.

00:54:30: so I think It brings how we see ourselves during this process together.

00:54:37: Yes therefore its a very important process to come into this where we all are wishing for, because harmony is within acceptance and seeing reality.

00:54:52: I think Ben has said something very beautiful during the last summit.

00:54:55: he said every horse has a right to be seen.

00:54:58: so what it is?

00:54:59: Exactly!

00:55:00: It was...it's not a mirror or reflection of our dreams & wishes but just the horse that it is.

00:55:08: That's the

00:55:11: same

00:55:11: with us.

00:55:12: And if we are wrapping this up, usually my guest is having the last sentence.

00:55:17: so If there is something that you could write out on a wall or shout-out to the internet and would like writers take home what will it be?

00:55:27: I'd like make advice test To go back little bit of feeling when you were much younger

00:55:39: and ten kilos lighter.

00:55:42: Just accept that open your eyes, and open your heart... And actually believe what you see even if it's not perfect is the reality!

00:55:55: It's there – The beauty & curiosity of life and body-wise will start up clear.

00:56:05: So instead sad or nervous, or afraid.

00:56:12: That is not perfect.

00:56:15: Use your child's curiosity and open eyes and heart.

00:56:19: see the reality already there.

00:56:21: you will take a lot of steps.

00:56:23: wouldn't it fantastic if the friend were okay to tell you how It really is?

00:56:31: And that You are also.

00:56:32: I always say my students can Tell Johos How it Really Is but visaverse You will feel how huge impact that would have realized.

00:56:43: Thank you very much for today, we will link your web page in the show notes

00:56:48: and

00:56:49: I also think i would like to mention That Your work is now at a time where The industry's ready For some change.

00:56:59: We need To Change Some Things.

00:57:01: We need to figure out approaches and therefore I mean would like to learn also from you because writing teachers needs not only thinking that you can fix it.

00:57:13: You have a clear overview of the reality and, um... That picture makes me calm.

00:57:19: Thank-you!

00:57:20: Welcome!

00:57:21: And I also think your work is getting more important.

00:57:25: We've been here in the podcast talking about The Spinal Engine In The Horrors and so on But we'll talk next month with online membership getting more and more important because we can say this is really where the journey starts.

00:57:46: Yes, so study yourself or the seat-we call it but a seat is not only your butt!

00:57:52: We could say that if you do... It's half of the ekipaar.

00:57:55: yes exactly yeah.

00:57:57: it's fantastic Because there You can always start And you're allowed changes with yourself.

00:58:05: It's allowed Instead of always think that you have to change another person or the horse.

00:58:13: There, you can work more freely study things... Yeah!

00:58:17: The feeling and knowledge when the spine is allowed be as normal.

00:58:24: it's a fantastic feeling.

00:58:26: I will warmly recommend that to all our listeners.

00:58:29: A little bit of seed training with Hanna can do quite some math.

00:58:32: and now before we start the second podcast, We really wrap it up make fresh coffee.