Lisa Ashton, what is the horse experiencing?

00:00:00: Today we know more about horse behavior, learning and welfare than ever before.

00:00:05: And yet if you're really honest practice on the ground often changes surprisingly little.

00:00:11: why is that?

00:00:12: Why isn't knowing better enough to make us also do better... ...and what if the clearest signal has been standing in front of us all the time!

00:00:22: On four legs this episode is built around a single question one the most interesting weldware projects out of there right now.

00:00:34: What is horse-experiencing really?

00:00:36: What's exactly what we are going to try and figure today together with my guest, Liza Ashton!

00:00:44: Welcome to a new episode of Academia Insights podcast for evidence based horse training.

00:00:51: My name is Celina Skogan.

00:00:53: I'm the founder of Equidemia and your host.

00:00:55: This episode is about a question that sounds simpler than it is, what's the horse experiencing right now?

00:01:04: And maybe less comfortable questions are behind us... Why does so little actually change when we already know so

00:01:14: much?!

00:01:15: For exploring this deeper, i've invited someone who has been working on exactly these questions for years!

00:01:22: grounded into science, but also just as much at home in day-to-day practice.

00:01:28: Let me introduce to you Liza Ashton.

00:01:31: Liza is an Equitation Science Educator coach and applied scholar whose work sits exactly at the intersection of equine welfare learning theory And human and organizational behavior change.

00:01:46: She has worked in Equitation Science for more than two decades with a particular focus on how horses learn, how humans interpret their behavior... ...and how evidence can be translated into everyday practice.

00:02:00: Liza is also the author of Horse Welfare from Inside Out and Welfair Horseports, a blueprint for positive change.

00:02:09: And most recently let the ABRS plus equi-centric futures project which explores exactly that gap?

00:02:19: That's where I'd like to start today with a gap in between what we know about horse welfare.

00:02:27: Welcome Lisa to the podcast.

00:02:29: Thank you for being here and taking your time.

00:02:33: Oh, that was quite a moment for me.

00:02:35: Selena thank you so much for inviting me and what a gorgeous and apologies to all your listeners.

00:02:43: long introduction!

00:02:45: I just wanted to sort of give you a nod to actually how appreciative i am...I don't know if you can see this as well is listening but..i've got my little Norwegian espresso mug mug for having my coffee in the mornings with.

00:03:02: So Selina, it was so lovely to meet you.

00:03:04: I met you at The Isis Conference International Society of Equitation Science In Denmark.

00:03:09: we'd never met before and your work inspires me And Your energy around showing up To enhance horse welfare is exactly why i'm here today.

00:03:21: Thank You For The Invitation.

00:03:23: It's Lovely.

00:03:25: Thank you for being here.

00:03:26: You know, I have been practicing the introduction of The Whole Morning because there were so many difficult British words in there or English words.

00:03:33: It took me quite some practice to get that out without stumbling too

00:03:38: much.

00:03:39: I just really enjoy the fact, how you do.

00:03:43: one thing is how you everything Selena and it was a moment for me.

00:03:50: so what amazing introduction!

00:03:51: You nailed all of the grammar And even the A-B-R-S which stands for The Association Of British Riding Schools Pluses Live Yards Equestrian Centres.

00:04:04: So I have zero Norwegian and i'm feeling very humble right now that you gave me such a lovely introduction.

00:04:13: so thankyou.

00:04:14: Wow, That is very sweet of you!

00:04:16: Let's talk about your way with horses all the time through your career until you reach this point here, leading the ABRS Plus report which is an amazing piece of work.

00:04:34: We will come to that a little bit later.

00:04:36: You've spent more than twenty years teaching people how horses learn.

00:04:42: At what point did you realize knowing how horses learned does not necessarily also mean humans change their way?

00:04:51: Humans do?

00:04:52: Yeah, what a great question.

00:04:54: So there was no defining moment for recognizing that as I was improving my own coaching and looking at my own language around training or helping equestrians apply learning theory or the science of how horses learn.

00:05:11: so What do mean by?

00:05:12: That is pressure or lightness.

00:05:15: As I was using language to enhance like I used to use the word negative reinforcement which isn't even anything to do with a values judgment, it's mathematical.

00:05:25: And so I would update as the science updated which is what Academe Is All About using evidence-based knowledge.

00:05:32: As i updated and replaced the word negative with removal reinforcement It was still a gap between nodding questions nodding and riders and coaches going.

00:05:44: yet that makes sense?

00:05:46: actually The doing bit grasped my curiosity.

00:05:51: And so the journey, sort of I have an origin backstory which is...I was that challenging rider equestrian who would always ask my coach why?

00:06:05: So i was And I don't think that surprised anyone listening based on in a minute when we get to the findings of this piece of research and this work that i've done inside writing schools.

00:06:20: So, I've always had this origin of curiosity and... ...I guess have always been drawn to change.. ..and how we do-how I go about my change and updating myself.

00:06:33: Um, I often talk about um On our phones, we will get notified that there's an update.

00:06:40: Yeah and it is really interesting.

00:06:43: It comes back to answering your question Why?

00:06:45: Is it the summer?

00:06:46: questions will immediately press updates whilst others Will delay.

00:06:53: what is actually going to help their phone run quicker And actually, so fix the bugs by pressing on a notification to update and give better effectiveness of communication.

00:07:07: The questions will wait... I do this quite often as a survey like.

00:07:12: obviously it's quite anecdotal in the room but many are delaying pressing updates because of inconvenience while the phone turns itself off and that's a hassle, an inconvenience.

00:07:28: And I think about it a lot in my book which is when we think of updated knowledge or people really doing the work to find out more... To get closer to truth about horses A totally different species As you're working with learning how horses learn Why isn't that knowledge and update happening?

00:07:50: We're twenty years on from where I started, and saying that a solution to Enhance & Hall's welfare is more education... ...is part of the solution.

00:08:02: It's not…I'm not saying it isn't – knowledge matters!

00:08:06: And there's that bit this research looks at—and what i'd learnt was that gap between what we know and do is a gap And that is where my work sits, and why did I then decide to sort of explore that gap?

00:08:47: same experience and yet two different outcomes or outputs really.

00:08:51: I really like how you're using this picture of pressing update because that's exactly, we do know so much more about horse welfare behavior ,about learning.

00:09:09: I don't want to say we are so bad.

00:09:15: And, and i think there has been happening quite a lot the last decade or the last twenty-twenty years even towards equine welfare definitely it has but still they're also... We can see in everyday practice.

00:09:28: that's till quite a long journey for us to go.

00:09:32: There is quite some meters to cover.

00:09:34: So um.. There was certain resistance into doing

00:09:41: Into

00:09:41: doing that change.

00:09:44: and yeah, I mean i'm a writing instructor myself.

00:09:49: I do often see the pain in humans when we are discussing things like that, because it's first thing.

00:09:56: When you're just discussing welfare or twenty-four behaviors and all this stuff around there is often immediate resistance between them but then they aren't allowed to do anything anymore.

00:10:08: And thats not what its about really right?

00:10:11: Because an improved equine welfare also at least from my perspective leading more human welfare.

00:10:19: So in the end, we all have a better time together.

00:10:21: Nice!

00:10:22: One of things that my curiosity led to was really looking at three areas and thats what drives this project I've just completed.

00:10:31: It's been my life work actually.

00:10:33: but first is our mindset.

00:10:35: i wrote whole book about identity positionality confidence segment or the next importance of moving through change, or pressing update.

00:10:51: So one is our mindset and I'll get quite specific in a minute about emotions.

00:10:57: are, you mentioned the word resistance to change.

00:11:00: There's quite a lot in neuroscience about how it's human condition to resist change like actually is really functional for us and we use the words heuristics or shortcuts when consumption in our brain.

00:11:20: So, you know it's easier to have a shortcut To do what we've always done than perhaps use more energy In the calorific deficit to think about actually What is going on for The horse here.

00:11:33: and could I Actually look at new knowledge or information?

00:11:36: so there's that part?

00:11:38: So i call up mindsets in my work.

00:11:40: And the next Part Is skill sets.

00:11:42: and That got this really interest me because As you know, everyone is really across the word while fair or horses faring well and what this particular project really honed in on by using a different methodology to perhaps other question research.

00:12:02: I do know, having to my best of my knowledge scanned in all the different spaces.

00:12:07: It's a field known as realist research or realist evaluation and it has been around for thirty years so its in terms of methodology isn't actually that old but is where we're looking at using realists' research an realistic approach things like physical inactivity.

00:12:28: So We Do Know In Society Actually the more inactive we are, the more harmful it is both for an individual level and For the whole of the community And for society.

00:12:41: Yet by just saying let's walk through a gym and do More physical activity We don't Do It.

00:12:49: So that was The Real Intersection to a questionnism and knowing better, pressing update on our phones.

00:12:57: And yet not doing better as in we know.

00:13:00: it's not because... We are attached to helping horses feel good like we love our horses.

00:13:06: that is nothing to do with aspirational

00:13:09: welfare.".

00:13:10: I have coined the phrase.

00:13:12: It Is In My Report That Is Now Shortly Due Out Any Day The reality.

00:13:19: we can aspire to help horses fare better and to enhance their welfare, but that resistance to actually do better.

00:13:28: That skill set is really complex And the field of realist research has really helped me.

00:13:35: by taking up a realist evaluation Of the work I've done Has helped me understand conditions needed for one equestrian To immediately press update and to actually apply skills that are going immediately enhance the individual horse which will come on some examples shortly.

00:13:57: And then other equestrian, you carry-on doing what they've always done.

00:14:02: so thats been really interesting for me.

00:14:03: find out in.

00:14:04: a third sort of pathway that does result in updates is our systems.

00:14:14: And there's this lovely quote, I think it's...I want to get accurate but certainly the quote where we succeed at Or if you want to flip it around, we fail to the standards or level of our systems failing.

00:14:33: And I think about equestrianism and how we might be failing our horses through our system.

00:14:40: What do mean by that?

00:14:41: That's

00:14:41: a nice one!

00:14:45: Frame that for the audience.

00:14:47: You have three different areas, you have mindset skillset and systems And each of them has an influence on how quickly you can press update then apply it into your daily practice.

00:14:59: Is that correct?

00:15:01: Beautifully summarized We could even say system sets.

00:15:04: It's whether that lands in Norwegian I don't

00:15:08: know.

00:15:11: Works in German though, very well.

00:15:13: Ah!

00:15:14: There we go.

00:15:15: So yeah and it's really shaped my work to be fair.

00:15:19: so once I've got my head around that sort of heuristic or shortcut this is a mindset challenge.

00:15:27: This is a skill set for your listeners.

00:15:31: They might think you're not...this going well yourself.

00:15:33: But when you have to go into a riding school or an arena, the systems that already being... So we talk about reinforcements and systems.

00:15:45: What are we being rewarded for?

00:15:47: If it's more of what we've always done as opposed to exploring what else could be happening for the horse then we're gonna find it really hard with our new updated knowledge to experiment and bring, say something like the addition of a scratch.

00:16:07: To actually change how the horse feels.

00:16:10: so replacing patting With scratches if this system that you are in.

00:16:15: So perhaps coach your pony club or riding club When you've scratched your pony because they scratch each other, so the aloe groom and that actually we got some research on there.

00:16:29: It helps them go into that word parasympathetic or relaxation state at lowest heart rate.

00:16:37: So it's value to individual horse.

00:16:40: but if system under coach is like why are So?

00:16:45: why are you being so gentle?

00:16:47: Like, Why Are You Scratching Your Horse.

00:16:48: I've heard a coach say... Why are you doing that?

00:16:52: your horse isn't a cat!

00:16:53: Why would you

00:16:54: scratch?!

00:16:57: Yeah That was from my high level performance coach and that's the systems challenge.

00:17:03: because actually when we're not reinforcing more of what we want which we know this through learning theory it actually shuts down experimentation.

00:17:15: And I've got a student from last year.

00:17:17: I do two days a week at Heartbury University, i'm a senior lecturer and one of my undergraduate students.

00:17:22: she her and I worked together on a realist study and she presented this at Old Tech Students Conference in May this year, twenty-twenty six but basically she wanted to look at the lived experience of horses at heartbury frequency and the situation or context at which the horses in a riding school were either patted, or scratched.

00:17:50: And she created this methodology where what came out of her data through realist research methodology was that actually the horse's experience patting because it was a comfort behaviour for the human.

00:18:15: That really frames what some of our challenges are, that actually we know better.

00:18:20: We know the horses scratch each other... ...we know they do it as part a species-specific behaviour called aloe grooming.

00:18:28: It makes them feel good.

00:18:29: so its freely available to you and I's coaches.

00:18:32: And right under our noses where they scratch like were sat on their horses and right into our nose is there wither And right there is their preference of a site to be scratched and then we get that response with the top lip.

00:18:47: So it's available, yet we're busy patting them.

00:18:51: And that is so interesting, and my student Georgina Potter actually has her name.

00:18:55: She's going on to do a Masters in Education Science at Hartbury University but her curiosity led to using realist methodology of what it... When I say realists let me explain the actual field instead just why something happens or how we keep y & how We add the whats happening for whom.

00:19:20: So if you think about the students who are patting, one of the reasons why they chose to pat their horse in this riding school was the context.

00:19:31: Some were actually out on a hack And that's when they chose to give patting behaviours.

00:19:36: Nothing linked... ...to the behaviour of a horse or what it had just done, so no reinforcement from the pats.. ..or release of rain pressure.

00:19:45: but because we were out on a hack there was this level of needing this comfort behaviour as human

00:19:52: for themselves.

00:19:55: yes!

00:19:57: There you go.

00:19:57: and thats what I mean by realist research its contextualisation What part, what context creates the patting in order that actually we know it's not helping more horses?

00:20:10: At best a pat is releasing the rain pressure which is great but has no species specific value.

00:20:17: So why are we still patting?

00:20:19: and thats'a good question.

00:20:20: You're avoiding yourself!

00:20:21: Great... But then its so interesting when you say there because going back through your three different sets, mindset skillset and systems.

00:20:33: Then it's very fair to say It doesn't help us or it doesn't necessarily lead somewhere if we are trying To solve a problem with behavior change problem was more information because maybe the person is already Very good on this skill set level.

00:20:53: but We have either A gap in the mind-set most often, not in my community.

00:21:00: There we have people with great mindsets but maybe it is in the system and then giving just more information does not necessarily lead to change or update.

00:21:10: Yeah, nice.

00:21:11: Nicely done!

00:21:11: Thank you so much.

00:21:12: Selina... You're a really sharp white woman and um it's yeah well you've just picked up on why?

00:21:20: And we don't.

00:21:21: I love the fact that it's your recognising that we can look to all systems To actually get more of what do want.

00:21:28: Why would not wanna be able press update without push back or resistance?

00:21:33: That doesn't mean shouldn't be cynical.

00:21:36: I do think that we should bring critical thinking into our work and i have actually again looked at the work of critical curiosity.

00:21:45: Curiosity people your listeners might be thinking well, That's not what I'm saying.

00:21:53: What we actually learned through this research, that I've recently finished with riding schools is it's a level of critical curiosity.

00:22:02: Here i have to stop you because I would love for you explain what critical curiosity means.

00:22:10: So, there is quite a little bit of work done on this and Athena Bacaio I've referenced it in my report she looks into this with one her books about being anchored, aligned an accountable.

00:22:25: And those three words that bring to me when we're anchored were into our values.

00:22:32: so particular project Zoom out a little to answer your question, if you don't mind.

00:22:39: And maybe I'm just thinking that we should deliver reading lists with the podcast!

00:22:44: Yes it sounds brilliant but let's do that...I think probably those of you who can see me as well because i am so curious and i enjoy being updated.

00:22:59: I love that.

00:23:00: But this book in particular is really about how anchored are we to our values?

00:23:05: Now if you don't know our values, We can then say That were horse centric or equi-centric Or welfare driven.

00:23:12: So one of the things i really wanted To do In this particular project was i Wanted actually learn from my riding schools That i Was working with Is what Are their values!

00:23:22: I wanted to Know What Their Personal Values Were And also Then how the organisation or system values of those riding schools.

00:23:32: So my first visit to each one was about meeting them where they are and that was a values exercise, I talked back in my book as well but if we don't understand what we're anchored too like horses faring well why would we then sort-of align our skill sets?

00:23:54: And so there can be a gap at that point.

00:23:56: The reason why I'm spending a bit of time on it, Selena is because we talk about when we know better – Is There A Gap?

00:24:02: Actually we could be recognising our values are to enhance horses' well-being mentally and physically... ...and yet our gap isn't in skill set!

00:24:13: That actually perhaps we don't have enough knowledge.

00:24:18: the science of how horses learn.

00:24:20: And in particular, in The Riding Schools one of things that made such an impact on positive welfare which I know we're going to get onto is without focus and attention detail or lightness.

00:24:35: remember horses are sentient beings.

00:24:37: so as a riding school when you have complete beginners understanding is that the horses are in service to us because a complete beginner, is absent of independent signals or cues.

00:24:53: To be able to offer a sentient horse being lightness.

00:24:58: so there's this whole story inside riding schools.

00:25:02: actually our riding school horses do experience heavy pressures from beginners and the absence of release, of pressure.

00:25:11: And we talk about the release because it's the release that trains or what is in for a horse... Because a fly is aversive!

00:25:20: How do you know?

00:25:21: If the fly wasn't a-versive then the horse wouldn't be motivated to twitch its skin off with the tail.

00:25:28: they would just let them go on their own business.

00:25:32: But because the fly is aversive, that tactile touch IS aversives they are motivated to remove the fly.

00:25:40: And that's what we mean by pressure as a rider.

00:25:43: Rain pressure and leg pressure.

00:25:45: So this skill set of equitation Is how can show up with at least amounted pressure That motivates the desired response for us As opposed perhaps what horse is trying to be motivated or desire followed by then learning.

00:26:01: that's how they make the pressure go away.

00:26:04: That is business of operant conditioning or removal reinforcement, so in riding schools knowing having a skill set on how horses learn lightness and least amount of pressure from beginners there are leases because accelerated or decelerated opened a foreleg or abducted, or closed the foreleg.

00:26:26: Like all of this content matters to The Horse because it is their lived experience.

00:26:31: and so what I really wanted to get into in skill sets Is lightness Of pressures release of pressure which we call about controllability for the horse And the ability that the horse experiences nothing.

00:26:45: This is a riding school horse until that beginner signals otherwise or gives a cue, an aid.

00:26:51: And so it was real sort of challenge I set myself.

00:26:55: actually our horses can experience this with complete beginners who will be mentally perhaps anxious.

00:27:02: we talk about you know beginner riders holding onto the reins like monkey.

00:27:07: you're gripping because of the anxiety, or mental state in humans who have never sat on a horse before.

00:27:14: So I had all these challenges as riding school horses and one thing that i was really delighted about is the riding schools in The Project, there was four.

00:27:25: We started with six and the real estate sort of explores why we ended up with four And I talk about that on the report.

00:27:33: but when you get to our four one of their biggest resistances which comes back to mindset is how an earth can ask horses serving us.

00:27:43: Our complete beginners actually experience lightness release of pressure.

00:27:48: so predictability for that.

00:27:51: it will always be light, not coming with strong pressures from a beginner say.

00:27:56: Always be lightness.

00:27:57: they'll always been off for the correct response.

00:27:59: so thats what's in it to them and we can test this word self-carriage.

00:28:04: keep going until we signal otherwise.

00:28:07: Why was that important?

00:28:08: Well after my first visit of meeting where there are the riders called horses weren't In fact the reason why their is good at their job is they've done principle number five, or the mode of learning that's a simplest which is habituation.

00:28:24: They have habituated to relentless pressures as a riding school horse and that sort-of becomes the signature of a writing school horse.

00:28:33: how good are you?

00:28:34: As a horse...

00:28:34: ...they know their job!

00:28:36: To habituate whatever random signals not respond because if it did then would be the safest for that beginner

00:28:47: Exactly.

00:28:48: That's also a quality, right?

00:28:49: In a high school riding school horse is the big it's a bit quality.

00:28:52: I've been working some years in an academy in Sweden and we have been Also having school horses and teaching Different yeah different skill set levels in riders i would say all The way from beginners like children up to High School.

00:29:12: And that was very interesting because Some of the horses were so good at their job And we were making a point out of that, you know?

00:29:20: We had the space and... The skill set around it.

00:29:25: The system also rounded to say these horses have very low load of lessons per week so we are training them ourselves.

00:29:35: They're living outside on three hundred hectares in a flock.

00:29:38: most time then each horse has couple of lessons every weekend And the experienced ones, you could see how they were switching state in the moment.

00:29:49: They saw their students which didn't mean that... ...that they kind of shut down or something?

00:29:54: Or they weren't interested.

00:29:55: it just thought what was a little bit up!

00:29:58: It's a sweet little girl again from last week.

00:30:00: I know she is always bringing carrots, and i know She Is having difficulties in trot?

00:30:05: I do it slowly.

00:30:06: so um that was really like Like A huge quality And some of them.

00:30:11: if you have an experienced horse That is good at the job You can't pay Them with gold But still its Of course Also our Job especially as an Instructor.

00:30:22: I feel At least Its my part of My responsibility to ask What is the horse experiencing?

00:30:30: And that's maybe the most powerful question you are bringing up.

00:30:35: in your work.

00:30:36: What is the horse experiencing really?

00:30:38: Nice,

00:30:39: and the fact that you were tuned to that it's bringing into scope of The Horses.

00:30:45: as a coeducator You shared what was happening at your riding school in Sweden.

00:30:51: They became our coeducators.

00:30:53: That speed which they habituate or are able manage their clients really interests me.

00:31:01: And so one of the things that I wanted to sort of explore in this particular project was could we help the coaches, parameters or we call them indicators, behavioural indicators that give us a window into what the individual horse is experiencing in that lesson.

00:31:22: So actually thats really where this project started with the skill sets We started to look at in hand and under saddle And to attune their behavioural indicator like eye blink rate the speed of their eye blinks and just to help everyone listening, if your horse is like a rabbit in headlights with no blink they are busy attuning something that elevates their arousal.

00:31:50: What I mean by this is it's got their attention whether that something is going to need an immediate response such as fast legs and distance, which is a species specific response to avoid whatever's coming next.

00:32:07: And so they need to manage themselves as horses.

00:32:11: So the non-blink rabbit in headlights are important data for us.

00:32:16: but don't feel too great about what ever happens

00:32:22: Because that would be.

00:32:23: I'm sorry for interrupting you because it's a little bit what i am trying to lead towards, So we are going from what is the horse experiencing to, What do I think?

00:32:38: The horses experience.

00:32:39: Beautiful!

00:32:41: How did

00:32:41: you feel that gap?

00:32:43: Yeah so it's about skill sets and being able to actually tune into whats in front of us.

00:32:48: And why does skillsets land after mindsets while mindset introspection, I hope that translates across different languages but basically to flip and inside ourselves.

00:33:01: And actually think about what is going on for the other being whilst we're trying going to truck to canter, do our competition.

00:33:14: We've got our agenda that we're bringing into the relationship.

00:33:17: what's actually happening for the horse now?

00:33:19: The skill set is to be able read these behavioural indicators and let us know how the horse is faring And that word, while fair is faring well.

00:33:31: So I'm scanning for behavioural indicators of our riding school horses and in obviously performance

00:33:37: etc.,

00:33:38: they actually either feel neutral about what we're doing positive...and i'll talk about it shortly.

00:33:45: how can assess there.. ...and then the word negative.... The research in last decade has focused on the negative emotional states.

00:33:56: It's just easier for us to pick up.

00:33:58: For example, I've mentioned a rabbit in headlights has no blinks so it's easy as your listeners are listening To pick that out.

00:34:06: like you can see there is no blinking Is pretty fast and you're pretty recognising those locked ears That have not now been scanning longer than four seconds.

00:34:17: So they aren't moving.

00:34:17: They were locked for four second with no blink.

00:34:21: is explaining to you that something in that moment has captured an emotional state and we can attune training toolkit, and we can help change that emotional state for them.

00:34:35: And that's a principle number four in terms of the first principles of horse-training which are just principles nobody owns there will probably hit us you know?

00:34:44: We could add it to our notes on podcasts or what those principles are.

00:34:49: but if look at principle number Four from the International Artificial Recreation Science It is all about regard.

00:34:56: Now I'm looking for indicators how my horse feels, which is actually a shift in.

00:35:03: perhaps How do i feel and we mentioned?

00:35:06: I'm busy patting.

00:35:07: My horse because it's a comfort behavior For me to Actually what Is going on for the individual riding school horse or whatever you know Whatever discipline yeah.

00:35:17: so So that was really important at this project delivered That sort of What can We tangibly measure Or make?

00:35:26: And I'm going to introduce a new word for everybody, an influence.

00:35:31: We do this in animal welfare science as we make influences and all it means is Estimate of what is happening for a totally different species.

00:35:43: How do we make it?

00:35:44: A robust inference, or I use the word critical inference.

00:35:49: Is we used behavioural indicators from that individual horse That are specie-specific?

00:35:55: So if you take a domain like nutrition... ...a really useful inference Or a robust inference It's body condition score You know Yeah one of many exactly.

00:36:11: it doesn't mean its the only in critical influence but we have some data.

00:36:15: that's what i'm trying to explain so.

00:36:23: rain pressure and leg pressure.

00:36:25: And we're talking about the domain force C or behavioral interactions with humans, horse-human interactions.

00:36:32: what I'm really interested in is how that's landing on an individual horse?

00:36:35: What are critical inferences?

00:36:37: so if you've got a horse opening their mouth to the rain pressure from the rider We have a horse communicating specifically whatever pressure it is the horse is having to open and make comfort behaviours, To avoid that discomfort.

00:36:59: There's a functionality of opening their mouth whilst under saddle or in hand And that functionality Is data!

00:37:07: That tells us as coaches.

00:37:09: actually The horse needs to provide comfort Because the rider may be absent Of lightness for this individual horse Rather than putting his noseband tighter.

00:37:21: Yes, yes.

00:37:21: And that is something we are really trying to teach our professionals.

00:37:26: in the masterclass there was... That behavior is simply data and first we need try to collect more data before we get judgmental.

00:37:39: Nice!

00:37:39: There's also a thing I found very interesting with this report because it is so close for us practice that when you're looking at, especially behavioral problems.

00:37:55: That if don't look them as something needs to be corrected.

00:38:01: but seeing some thing is giving your information because there's changing so much when we make the shift into ourselves and you could observe it now also in your report.

00:38:15: So what is shifting?

00:38:17: When are changes from being judgmental to collecting data, collecting information seeing behaviors.

00:38:24: Nice

00:38:24: I think you're into.

00:38:25: well what's change is mindset.

00:38:27: so actually i'm gonna invite everyone listening to actually reframe their relationship as sort of the horse being your co-educator like your actually your horses constantly giving you data and help you decide Where do you go next?

00:38:46: You know, like this is because it's that the point I'm making.

00:38:49: really knowledge doesn't sit in books or conferences.

00:38:55: Or journal papers.

00:38:57: It actually needs to if it's gonna enhance Halls welfare.

00:39:00: its actually what we do with that knowledge and That's why i'm inviting us to look at our mindsets So that shift about ago.

00:39:07: This Is Data For Us for me as opposed.

00:39:11: And once they see The Mouth Opening to my reins or let's say I'm coaching and it's easy to see, rather than going to tack an equipment to control the head and neck.

00:39:22: i want to go to the lived experience of how the horse can-and i've already mentioned here get the least amount of pressure from the rider to motivate the slowing or deceleration... And because the horse is decelerated!

00:39:36: ...I can actually remove that with pressure especially cause.

00:39:40: im a beginner.

00:39:41: Why do I say especially?

00:39:43: Well, actually they have no other previous learning history which we haven't yet come on to with our mindset.

00:39:49: We haven't come onto what are called normalised behaviours and that is the definition of culture.

00:39:56: so our culture is just a set of normalised behaviour in a system like a riding school.

00:40:02: if it's normalized to have relentless constant pressure for riding school horses, the ones that are going to really survive and thrive in riding schools they're gonna habituate to relentless pressure.

00:40:13: So now that's where the work sitting at this skill set of lightness I use a word please The ability to release pressure even as a beginner or thank you because of the response.

00:40:25: so Now the pressures removed That what is in it for horse And This whole Please & Thank You becomes experience for a riding school horse.

00:40:35: that is better, so I'm going to introduce the new concept now.

00:40:39: It's a better than expected outcome!

00:40:42: So let's look at the field of neuroscience.

00:40:46: The work has been done quite a lot in other species, not horses so mice and rats and birds And researchers looking into prediction errors in neuroscience In Horses is Dr Kath Henshel.

00:41:01: I think you might have met her at ISIS.

00:41:02: Yes sir Yep!

00:41:04: Professor Paul McGreevy These researches in Equalization Science are looking out this work that already being done on another species of prediction errors.

00:41:14: So let me give us a quick update on what that means, is something better than expected?

00:41:20: As expected or worse than expected?

00:41:23: so if I've been a riding school horse and my lived experience is actually serving beginners an all-I know it's constant pressure that might be heavy.

00:41:32: you can imagine that perhaps i just got used to.

00:41:36: so like a neutral as expected this experience, lesson after lesson.

00:41:43: But one of the things this particular project wanted to explore and why it gets into ground breaking when we evaluate what happened is that actually... The horses are now getting for perhaps a first time at least amount pressure with the off And now we think that actually riding school horse is better than expected.

00:42:06: outcome

00:42:08: Yes

00:42:09: That didn't used to happen.

00:42:11: Now, it will only stay better than expected whilst that becomes a new experience.

00:42:17: This is what prediction is all about learning cycles.

00:42:22: So one of the things about this project is we actually think that as our skill sets became, so are coaches they got better and better at lightness and release of pressure.

00:42:32: then our horses were able to have experience positive than expected prediction errors.

00:42:41: That's an example of positive welfare or adding a mental state rather neutral or negative, but better or positive.

00:42:52: So it's a really great question to ask is how do I know that what we delivered in this project would actually have any positive welfare outcomes when the limitation of study was around updating humans and coaches at the riding schools?

00:43:08: What didn't you take?

00:43:10: physiological indicators like cortisol, or we didn't take any of those physiological measures in this study.

00:43:18: But I do hope that the two will actually have these sort of mixed methods so then we can also take more content to make this inference and help more horses in riding schools.

00:43:37: There we are coming to the topic of horses as coeducators, right?

00:43:42: I just need to write down here my... The keyword.

00:43:45: you just gave me a nice keyword here prediction error.

00:43:47: I needed to write that down because already had cat on last summit in March Talking about the telenome before it was published.

00:44:00: It's really beautiful and now We're working on next summit into years And will do applied neuroscience And there your prediction error will of course fits.

00:44:10: It is really and it's on point where we're at in the moment, and Katha has really I mean she's At The front Of the forefront of this horses Is its conceptual what?

00:44:20: We've really now need to do is Really start To explore how we sort of really bring that to life.

00:44:25: and i definitely grasp That if a riding school horse can shift from having relentless heavy pressures to lightness and release of pressure that has to feel better than expected.

00:44:39: Absolutely, definitely!

00:44:41: And there are many doors opening when we're going into perspective because it's a positive welfare for the horses.

00:44:51: but also again... What do I as a trainer or what does the train and need for going down that road?

00:44:58: For becoming curious, for challenging your own belief system.

00:45:01: And say okay...I am trying something new!

00:45:05: I'm trying out of my comfort zone how i have been traditionally seeing horses in the last forty years.

00:45:17: so it takes quite a lot of stamina also, I would say.

00:45:21: To be so brave to take that step forward?

00:45:24: So i wanted to investigate this and you know just have the courage over comfort... And I'll come onto the discomfort on those riding schools were in the project but evaluated this project.

00:45:41: And so I need to explain that a little bit and why that actually happened, So the design was really about something called a program theory...and all it means in realist methodology is that an intervention was designed that could be iterative as opposed to perhaps designing a methodology that you can't really iterate, because your interested in the absence of variables.

00:46:11: So,

00:46:12: I designed a programme theory which is the phrasing of if that happens because this happens then this happens.

00:46:21: We call it If Then Because statements in realist research.

00:46:26: so as one of first ever equine realists researchers i created a programme.

00:46:36: I deliver in-hand learning theory or the first principles, so that was a second visit.

00:46:51: And this is me coaching inside The Riding Schools to the coaches and yard staff under Saddle... I can then finish the intervention with something called A Realist Ripple's Effects Map or mapping and that's how I got to evaluate the impacts of.

00:47:15: So, it's a really interesting journey that I went on because... ...I met them where they were.

00:47:21: That is when I found out their values and what would they anchor to?

00:47:24: Every single riding school was selected for the diversity so all different in size.

00:47:33: What do you focus on?

00:47:34: We had two urban riding schools One in the middle of London

00:47:39: Interesting Yeah!

00:47:42: We have another one up north graphically very different.

00:47:46: We had one that's huge, like over fifty riding school horses.

00:47:50: a team of fifteen coaches and we had one was really focused on children who are struggling with.

00:47:58: perhaps schools need additional learning support so they were selected because the differ.

00:48:06: why did it matter to program theory?

00:48:09: Well, what why it mattered is we needed different contexts to understand.

00:48:15: Why would one riding school take up the discomfort of new knowledge or press update come back to our beginning?

00:48:24: Why Would One Riding School Press Update and Another One?

00:48:26: Not so It was really important that actually Was part Of The Process And So A Realist piece of research requires iteration, like we actually have to... So I designed the program and then what i noticed?

00:48:44: after I met them where they were.

00:48:46: And I delivered in-hand training before The Undersaddle ,I noticed something about their identities.

00:48:55: What that really means is yeah this how it ended up.

00:49:01: The in-hand work and the application of learning theory, or how horses learn in hand became really an absent resistance because the coaches hadn't had previous learning history on in-han training.

00:49:17: Oh yeah!

00:49:18: Interesting...

00:49:21: Yeah, it was really novel for them and so they were allowing me to really... For them to be coachable.

00:49:28: I asked that question at the beginning which was you know my framing to all of the coaches in each riding school different contexts.

00:49:35: My one same question like what is a horse experience?

00:49:39: To the coaches on this project Was are you coach-able?

00:49:44: And so what that really meant was could you suspend your existing knowledge and can I offer content that would help you be introspective, reflective.

00:49:56: So could you look inside yourself?

00:49:59: And suspend what you already think you know to actually explore something we might have learnt recently ten years ago, however long a go we learn how to train horses.

00:50:14: And that invitation meant by the time I realised I'd done in-hand delivery... ...I knew there will be this attachment to their own identity as the knower or professional and so it allowed me to iterate the programme theory part of the program theory or intervention.

00:50:41: So when I got to before The Undersaddle, i added in February an online webinar all about resistance and how it's a really human condition And its normal!

00:50:57: How we navigate that pushback?

00:51:00: What conditions do you need on this project To embrace rethinking?

00:51:07: But I hadn't built that into the design of the program theory until i met them where they were and then delivered in hand, and recognized The value of social identity.

00:51:19: We are all You know.

00:51:21: it's really important to us That we're busy coaching.

00:51:27: It is our day job So why would we then Suspend being the knower be curious in this particular project when our identity is attached to being the knower and not the learner.

00:51:42: So, this became... Yeah sorry go on!

00:51:44: No no just from coach-to-coachy it's sometimes a big stepper right?

00:51:49: It's huge step yeah and you know newer scientists have been looking at for long time.

00:51:56: its really about our positionality.

00:52:02: One, I'll be do even know our positionality.

00:52:04: So that was a great question to my coaches on this project.

00:52:07: and can we rethink who We are?

00:52:10: Can we hold two things at once that actually could be too tiny...can we be the knower AND The learner AT THE SAME TIME!

00:52:18: And That i invited the Riding Schools To Do On This Project.

00:52:22: It Created A Normal Discomfort and THAT is where the learning took place.

00:52:27: and that Is one of the Things i'd like to come onto in a minute.

00:52:31: And that is basically, also where the magic happens.

00:52:34: I feel because for me when i was moving to Norway with my ponies and suddenly we had this completely different environment... We have not been talking about it before but what we've done?

00:52:51: a little rewilding project here on the farm.

00:52:55: So the horses have access to going free in the mountains, there are no fences.

00:53:01: They can go in and out as they want being home or not home.

00:53:06: And before that Or when we did that We experienced this huge shift In their personalities Also how open they were To receive training and so on.

00:53:22: for me it was a huge challenge.

00:53:26: Suddenly my personality was challenged.

00:53:29: Who am I?

00:53:30: In this context, it's so challenging to find a new spot there for me too and of course affecting the professional identity because If this is how I can change the environment and how i can change their well-being, what shall i teach my students when they should do shoulder in.

00:53:50: So of course there's becoming or going from a coach to a coachy.

00:53:56: it's huge step and its not always easy sometimes little bit painful.

00:54:01: we are through process that where magic happens but at the start you will be paid for

00:54:09: I hear you, it is.

00:54:10: It's discomfort and what i

00:54:12: was able to do?

00:54:14: And its great that you recognise that!

00:54:17: What we're talking about really are mechanisms.

00:54:19: in the work of realist research We talk about context follows.

00:54:24: so your context.

00:54:26: You moved your horses from where you came, was it Sweden?

00:54:30: You move to Norway.

00:54:32: I'm German but travelling with my ponies through Europe simply for learning classical writing.

00:54:42: So that geographical change of environment or context and the mechanism.

00:54:49: what i am really interested in is... The mechanism fronting up your own positionality, and instead of tapping out Selena you sat in your own discomfort.

00:55:02: And that is a mechanism!

00:55:05: The last part of realist research after context-and-mechanism... You don't need to know these words but I'm just giving you sort of how this whole project was the whole methodology around it ...is outcome.

00:55:18: So the outcome would actually have been and your ability to practice rethinking, that you actually recognise it.

00:55:27: You didn't have to stay stuck in what one thought was your positionality... ...you did actually adapt and respond because of the discomfort not because of absence of discomfort.

00:55:40: And so that is where growth and change always happens.

00:55:43: So I was really... Yeah sorry, go ahead and say something.

00:55:46: It's just they always ask we can.. We have space for getting curious.

00:55:52: And then the next step is basically from going from curiosity into critical, curiousity where this cycle or it's more less closing to say we have a good balance right so that critical curiosity can be.

00:56:09: Can we?

00:56:11: reach a point maybe where we can say, okay.

00:56:15: We're curious but also critical so that might have enough evidence to say no this practice is longer defensible.

00:56:24: And I actually think what you've touched on which is superb, Celina?

00:56:29: Is the certainty...I like the fact that your using the word Critical Infant of Curiosity To get comfortable with uncertainty Because we don't know.

00:56:41: We're not a horse!

00:56:43: So the fact that you had discomfort in your own positionality, like who am I now?

00:56:52: Who is Selena if she's not who used to be in a previous context?

00:56:58: And that discomfort, you sat in it.

00:57:00: You didn't tap out... We call the word cognitive dissonance.

00:57:05: You don't try and replace that dissonant with some more comfort behaviour as if this isn't going to happen that you've always been.

00:57:16: You didn't do that, you sat in that discomfort and what came out of it was probably more um value of being able to rethink like you can adapt and-and you've got a speed of reaction, an adaptability.

00:57:30: And that's what happened to our coaches on this project.

00:57:33: is they were in discomfort and let's not pretend they weren't!

00:57:37: You know?

00:57:38: You'll hear from them.

00:57:40: we've got really quite an exciting amount of content around what actually happened for them rather than my explanation but I certainly what led it nicely to evaluate my own, I designed the project.

00:57:57: What makes this robust in terms of a piece of realist research is... and what makes it groundbreaking which you haven't even mentioned ...is this methodology called Realist Ripple's Effects Mapping And all it basically means is each riding school was able to take the intervention, or program theory and map for their perspective.

00:58:26: So we use the word participatory data.

00:58:30: so its not my data my evaluation of the project, what they did is a went into mindsets skillsets and system sets.

00:58:40: And I had them cut post it note different colors.

00:58:44: You'll see this at the back of the report how i actually present that evaluation.

00:58:49: mm-hmm.

00:58:50: but basically mind sets are set color skill sets or different colour.

00:58:54: They decided each other timelines off The Project.

00:58:59: What was an impact?

00:59:01: Now that didn't mean only positive, they also noted negative impacts.

00:59:07: And so what actually happens is each of these post-it notes with the mindset skillsets and systems was what they delivered or evaluated as an impact... ...and then they decided what was a pathway to the next impact or not along this timeline!

00:59:26: That's known as an Impact Pathway.

00:59:29: And we start to bring that data off each of these ripples effects maps into something called causal pathways.

00:59:38: So what works, why it works how it works and for whom?

00:59:43: And that's how data in the last part of the project, so it was a final part.

00:59:49: It is evaluation using a published used and physical inactivity use in sort-of health science or health research known as realist ripples effects mapping Was brought into an equestrian project for participants at the riding school coaches yard staff to evaluate the project.

01:00:13: So it wasn't my evaluation and I think that's really important.

01:00:16: when you read the report, that you see the maps themselves.

01:00:20: they're in the appendix.

01:00:22: You'll see each of The Riding Schools realist maps or realists ripples effects mapping.

01:00:27: Each one is an impact And there are positive and negative ones on their.

01:00:33: Then was able to synthesize that data through context mechanism and outcome And that's how we ended up with two key findings.

01:00:44: This is really the result of work, and one is actually our riding school horses were already seen as their species specificness.

01:00:55: they was seeing how they were coping or working serving us in those riding schools.

01:01:01: They are actually seen as coeducators.

01:01:05: The other finding Is Our Riding Schools Need safe spaces to make mistakes, To be reflective.

01:01:15: To Be the learner and not the knower!

01:01:18: To be critically curious.

01:01:19: they needed that safety That no harm would come to them by being investigative and curious, getting it wrong by applying learning theory.

01:01:30: They needed to be psychologically safe And that level of reflection facilitated the growth you just talked about.

01:01:41: Where?

01:01:41: That discomfort.

01:01:43: You can't not change if you sit in discomfort and allow the process of learning To close or come.

01:01:52: It's a point where you can go again and do the next sort of update or learning.

01:01:59: So I really love how you helped me navigate what we actually did on The Project because it was through mindset, skill sets and system-sets that they then evaluated impact pathways And its their evaluation Of positive AND negative pathways Or sorry impacts That resulted in those findings.

01:02:20: Yeah...that is really great.

01:02:24: Maybe just for wrapping this up, how did that eventually translate into positive welfare for the horse?

01:02:32: There's two riding schools I need to mention and there are other two as well.

01:02:36: But one in particular... In January had a horse with a problem we'd talked about at the start of the project doing The University Of New England's applying the Five Domains online course.

01:02:51: So one of the main coaches knew that her horse, who wasn't sleeping in this riding school was a challenge like.

01:03:00: she knew it as a health challenge for the domain three of The Five Domain's but also knew its affecting and rippling into an individual world being used by children.

01:03:14: And so I advise that they take the bars down between the stables because what they were getting in the state, through the night was the absence of physical touch or that buffer of species specific behavior.

01:03:29: Of being able to scratch each other and then gave their horses agency by removing the bars.

01:03:36: They provided social windows on those individual horses had the proximity to receive that aloe grooming and the proximity to remove another horse.

01:03:48: And that is as important!

01:03:50: has just been able to give horses access to each other.

01:03:53: They do need to be able sort of take themselves away as well, so they took down the bars providing social windows.

01:04:00: that had never happened before and only last week I managed... yeah we have..they had the thirtieth anniversary.

01:04:06: it's called Ebony Horse Club in the middle of Brixton!

01:04:09: The thirtyth Anniversary where late Queen of England was their patron the Queen Camilla, she arrived last Thursday and She got to hear about the impact of The project on all those nine riding school horses having access To another horse.

01:04:31: And I call this social buffering.

01:04:33: like can we give them a buffering so they can actually serve us giving Us riding school lessons in the middle of London?

01:04:44: A second riding school has also done it by the way, so six months after we finished in April.

01:04:50: Stepney Bank who are up in Northumberland or north of England last week I want to say.

01:04:55: last Tuesday they also took the bars down and these what do you call ripples?

01:05:00: Or impacts?

01:05:01: So that was on their five domains but there's a small low hanging fruit impact is replacing scrap Pats with scratches, very low hanging fruit ripple.

01:05:14: But now the horses experience scratching rather than human comfort of being patted?

01:05:21: Yes and that is so nice because you could... it was not a pure theoretical work.

01:05:28: You actually did have real impact into horse's life Into these riding school horses' lives And small changes are leading to different culture around horses I would like to say, because it's very important.

01:05:46: Sometimes i feel that when we are starting to get into this world and maybe evidence-based and welfare so many people are getting a little bit stuck there Because they try make everything perfect And of course not how life is.

01:06:03: at least my life isn't so perfect It just lives

01:06:09: For sure.

01:06:10: And that's why the word realist fits us as equestrians, like you know when we have horses in the middle of London The realism is they do not get turnout As in on grass.

01:06:22: They get turned out In their family groups and their bands.

01:06:26: But with foraging and enrichment activities Now that is mitigating the fact That they don't have... now in holidays Christmas, Easter summer holidays but in term time they are serving humans.

01:06:43: And how do we mitigate that's realist and realism?

01:06:46: So the project was always about meeting ride-in schools where And for me to be in the arenas doing the application of evidence-based knowledge or first principles of horse training, that was always a programme theory.

01:07:02: So it is actually really ground breaking piece.

01:07:11: Yeah, what it's about is really getting... How can we take this further?

01:07:16: More ripples.

01:07:17: more impact on riding school horses and beyond because We mentioned critical curiosity.

01:07:23: There are many equestrian coaches not working in riding schools who are critically curious And our wanting the next update.

01:07:31: So we do think phase two will actually be able to reach much farther.

01:07:36: We have two riding schools of this project, Team Touchham and Kingsmeade whose coaches are in the cultural change.

01:07:50: It's really powerful.

01:07:51: but one thing I'd like to do is capture that cultural shift paradigm shift from what they used to be as a riding school, to now being equi-centric.

01:08:03: And those ripples the impacts of being equicentric as a writing school not just individually... Not just an organisation such as a writer but societally in the local area Those are the ripples we're interested in capturing and trying to sort of understand What worked for whom?

01:08:28: Very beautiful.

01:08:29: So if you would have a takeaway message to our listeners when they are going out there, one part is of course download the report When it's published and maybe read it To its full beauty.

01:08:41: I did already really thought It was super interesting And that is for me A missing piece in communication That we haven't had before.

01:08:49: so um i will definitely recommend it to Our students.

01:08:57: On the one hand, it's very easy to access.

01:09:00: And on the other hand... It really is this missing piece of education starting with low-hanging fruits and just start making a positive impact in equine life or in question life.

01:09:11: But what would you like?

01:09:15: breaking down into a sentence?

01:09:20: Yeah,

01:09:20: I like the word literate or literacy.

01:09:23: And certainly it comes from things like misinformation disinformation.

01:09:27: how media literature are we?

01:09:29: So that brings in a word Are We Critically Curious Or Are We Asking The Question Critically?

01:09:35: What Is A Horse Experience In?

01:09:37: and to do That We Need To Read Behavioral Indicators.

01:09:42: so this is what It Makes Up Horse Welfare Literacy.

01:09:49: Let's wave a magic wand.

01:09:51: Could we become, as a society of horse lovers more literate with horse welfare?

01:09:57: We do that by reading what is actually happening for the horse with behavioural indicators.

01:10:02: but can we also read our systems?

01:10:05: Can we actually recognise what we are rewarding and reinforcing in our status and positionality and human-to-human relationships?

01:10:15: That helps us be horse welfare literate and I think being able to get closer to the truth about horses is about practicing reflexivity or reflective practice.

01:10:29: Can we look more introspectively?

01:10:32: My invitation for everyone listening, can you be sort of intellectually humble?

01:10:38: Can we have some humility around what it's that we know more curious about.

01:10:47: And maybe what can we even rethink?

01:10:49: Because as new knowledge updates are sort of, What were you used to know?

01:10:55: Can We Just Be Pretty Quicker Updating Ourselves?

01:11:01: I like that!

01:11:01: I will keep the picture from today with pressing update To your actual state because i think That is just so useful.

01:11:14: I would like to say on this point, thank you for today.

01:11:17: Thank you for listening and your time!

01:11:21: And i very much hope that i can invite back another time in the podcast because we have a lot more to explore here.

01:11:32: And if there comes out a second part of the project, I'm really curious to hear about your findings.

01:11:40: That's amazing work you're doing up there!

01:11:43: Thank you for your work Lisa.

01:11:44: Oh

01:11:44: thank you and i'm really interested in what your listeners are thinking once we read the report or listen to our conversation because in communities and I think the more we support each other collectively, like your work Serena.

01:12:01: We can actually together take on challenges!

01:12:16: Chew the fat shall we say or whatever.

01:12:18: phasing is better in German on but We can go and ask really difficult.

01:12:25: my invitation to everybody's let's keep asking difficult questions And I don't think you get any harder and simpler than what is the horse experiencing?

01:12:34: Hello, I love that.

01:12:35: I lately had an interview with a quite famous breeder and she said at the end of the episode Continue being uncomfortable.

01:12:46: Nice, isn't

01:12:47: it?

01:12:48: I like that.

01:12:49: So we continue being uncomfortable until then... Until

01:12:53: next time!

01:12:57: Stay uncomfortable and have a nice day.